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To Be Done With Creationism |
Tupperfan
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Posts: 741
Location: The Maple Leaf State (Not the Hockey Team, boo!)
Joined: 10.07.06 |
| Posted on January 29 2025 23:19:14 |
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Allright, I know I'm preaching to the wrong crowd, but here's a great PDF document that could help when one is required to refute any silly idea thrown by "Intelligent" Designers...
Also, a little off-topic but science-related, I'm currently reading an awesome special-edition magazine on extra-solar planets. Some of those planets are worthy of the best science-fiction tales! Will try to keep their findings in mind when creating a realistic background for the Krossroad's Norse Nine system.
I'm leaving you with the words of a character from South Park's "Cartman in the 25th Century".
-Oh, my Science!
tupperfan.blogspot.com
Edited by Tupperfan on January 29 2025 23:25:49
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Forsythe-1
Member
Posts: 196
Location: New Jersey
Joined: 04.11.07 |
| Posted on January 30 2025 03:24:44 |
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I've found that even when presented with facts, figures or logic, a large percentage of creationist simply refuse to listen. A certain recurring argument with a family member of mine comes to mind. One that always ends with this phrase directed my way:
"I don't care."
Discussion over.
It could be about religion, politics. science or whatever. This is usually the signal that I have "won",which a good portion of the time actually isn't my intent. Part of good discourse is at least considering the possibility that one could be incorrect in one regard or another. I'm generalizing a bit, but the creationists I've encountered, seem quite unmoved when presented with the facts. So I get drunk and hurl feces at them to prove my point. 
"Listen, man. Sleep gives you cancer. Everyone knows that."
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Tupperfan
Administrator
Posts: 741
Location: The Maple Leaf State (Not the Hockey Team, boo!)
Joined: 10.07.06 |
| Posted on January 30 2025 03:40:36 |
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True.
tupperfan.blogspot.com
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
fixx
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Athens. Georgia
Joined: 14.06.06 |
| Posted on January 30 2025 04:29:52 |
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Myself being a Christian I hear many arguments against my belief's daily here at school, and more things that are just simply put forth in my education (I'm a religion major) have cause many an anxious hours, but damn if I don't come down to the simple decision that it's faith and it's not hurting anyone.
The problem is, is that many times Creationists feel under attack, I remember one debate I had with someone ended with "the burden of proof is on the theist to prove, not the other way around." Better than telling people they're wrong try postulating it as a hypothetical question then work your way out, but I have to quote one thing that I read in a magazine that came from a former New York University professor:
"When scientists absolutely reject God, we leave behind only a simpler and more dangerous God [Humanity]... why should a scientist show any degree of acknowledgment, much less friendliness, toward topics that are so big or mysterious that they can certainly never be addressed experimentally?... Because to pretend to be certain that such big questions don't exist is to be dishonest. [Because], most importantly... people are afraid to die, and they sometimes find hope in the unresolved status of the biggest questions. Take away that hope and you hand victory to whatever creep can give it back. It's mean-spirited to fight against that kind of hope."
I guess basically what I'm getting at, is that a lot of people need hope, others take comfort in the ideas of it. Why would you, and more importantly, who are you, to take that hope away?
I get pissed off at every raving lunatic that screams about how evil everything is and how we all deserve to burn in Hell. If you want to change the mind of someone like that, rather than attacking their beliefs which puts any sensible person on the defensive, go after the semantics of what they're saying and whether or not it's bigoted or chauvinistic or whatever the case may be. But deconstructing their faith in something beyond the limited life is just mean.
JB |
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Chronic Harlot
Administrator
Posts: 1778
Location: Joliet, Illinois
Joined: 26.05.06 |
| Posted on January 30 2025 04:54:13 |
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Fixx, that's all fine and dandy...but what did any of it have to do with science?
The autumn days swung soft around me, like cotton on my
skin. But as the embers of the summer lost their breath
and disappeared, my heart went cold, and only hollow
rhythms resounded from within.
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
fixx
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Athens. Georgia
Joined: 14.06.06 |
| Posted on January 30 2025 05:11:03 |
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It's not so much what does science have to do with it, but rather, the point that the editorial writer gets at, is that science can't really prove or disprove God, because one it's ultimately a choice to believe in it and that if you can totally and undeniably prove or disprove God, then it's not God. Plus he makes the point that that science isn't supposed to be concerned with such things.
I can philosophize the subject but I can't prove it. I remember a professor telling us something that PDF says. which is that evolution is proven over and over again, and that being a "theory" doesn't mean it's just a theory that's an idea that works. I asked him then, why is it then that it has yet to become a scientific law, and the reason is is because it's impossible to prove to the extent which it needs to be proven, so far.
I'm not here trying to cause an argument nor say that any theist is right and try to force it on anyone, I just saw a post and thought that I would throw in my two cents because I always here people talk about how many Christians refuse to give any kind of reasonable response to any discussion. Please for the love of... God(?) don't flame me like TrekWeb. |
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Forsythe-1
Member
Posts: 196
Location: New Jersey
Joined: 04.11.07 |
| Posted on January 30 2025 05:31:44 |
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My intent has never been to break down someone's faith about their concept of an after life. In most instances, it has been I who was on the defensive from certain hard line followers of intelligent design and creationism. This was my personal experience and I was perplexed as to how they could be so dismissive and almost violently opposed to anything that might be contrary to their system of belief. (These are the 'burn in hell type' folks you referred to.) I harbor no ill-will towards anyone's spiritual journey provided it's not predicated on hurting others or obfuscating the search for the truth, no matter if the truth happens to be counter to said beliefs.
My personal view is that religion/spirituality should be just that: personal.
That science has contradicted some long standing beliefs, Christian or otherwise, seems to frighten portions of quite a few of these groups to the point where rationality takes a backseat to any real dialog. Science doesn't have to be an affront to anyone's spiritual sensibilities and many Scientists will tell you that their research is actually a way of exploring their own sense of spirituality.
I lean towards the pantheist outlook on things. I'm certainly not out to crush anyone's beliefs but I'm certainly not going to silence mine either.
Finally (and this is just a thought.) I often wonder if evolution isn't considered scientific law yet because of the fear of reprisal from all corners of the theological world.
"Listen, man. Sleep gives you cancer. Everyone knows that."
Edited by Forsythe-1 on January 30 2025 05:38:42
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
SpiritOne
Member
Posts: 215
Location: Tyler TX
Joined: 18.07.06 |
| Posted on January 31 2025 00:02:50 |
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I agree with Oh Mighty Tim, the Enchanter (Forsythe). Spirituality religion should be personal. If you want to include your family, then sit down with your family and ask them if thats what they want. If they want to share in your spirituality, then by all means, get together with folks who you enjoy and enjoy your spirituality together.
My problem comes in, and I get all riled up, and down right pissed (to be honest) when religious groups attempt to pass faith based laws, and inject faith based or scripture based lessons into my kids public schools.
Faith based laws set a dangerous precedent. In fact, faith based laws turn this country into EXACTLY what everyone tells you your supposed to be afraid of. Extremists, religious countries. It just so happens that the extremist religion is Christianity. But SpiritOne, Christianity is not a dangerous religion, Christianity is all about love, peace and mutual understanding. Unfortunately, it doesn't take much to go from well rounded church going individual to rounding up an army to eliminate the enemy.
All that being said, Im not that guy who refuses to say "under god" during the pledge. I don't mind the 10 commandments on the steps of the courthouse. I just don't think we can remain a country with religious freedom and pass faith based laws at the same time. Especially when most people want to "pick and choose" which laws they want and which laws the could care less about.
As far as creationism, or intelligent design (whatever you want to call it), if your religious and thats what you want your child to learn, then guess what. You as a parent have that right. You can send them to church and they will do all of that for you. They do it in bible school every Sunday. If you want them to learn more, you don't have to send your kids to public school, send them a private church school. Thats whats great about America, freedom of choice. Lets all work together to keep it that way.
as a side, Fixx, where at in Athens, when I was a kid I used to live in Winterville.
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Moeskido
Member
Posts: 102
Joined: 13.10.07 |
| Posted on January 31 2025 03:09:34 |
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I've found that the creationists who most loudly proclaim they're under attack are actually members of groups who've been engaged in a two-decade campaign to acquire political power, change the definitions of concepts like science, and create a government which funnels even more money into "faith-based" initiatives than it already does. Nobody's attacking Christmas, fixx. It's just Bill O'Reilly boosting his ratings again.
If the vast, amazing collection of human knowledge (often acquired despite direct opposition by theocratic institutions) isn't enough to give you hope or dispel your fear of death, without relying upon the latest in a long line of simplistic, comforting beliefs, then we truly are a split society. Doomed to arguing the same nonsense over and over again every time an election comes up, or every time a new technology makes it possible to save more lives. There is so much more to the universe than what you'll find in the New Testament. And it'll get even more interesting, as the decades pass, and human beings collectively figure out more and more about how the universe works. Hearing about people who'd rather clutch bibles and bomb abortion clinics makes me wonder what century this is.
fixx, I'm willing to bet that nobody on this forum would dream of denying you the right to believe whatever you choose to, as long as it lets you sleep at night. But the moment you support the idea of polluting scientific inquiry with non sequitur marketing trash from groups like the Discovery Institute, rewriting history by deliberately misquoting both scientists and America's founders, or deciding that our Constitution is a better vehicle for limiting rights for some citizens (as opposed to expanding them for all), I think you've stepped over a line into people's lives that nobody gave you or your church permission to cross.
The whole brunt of movements such as the one driving Creationists into public debate is that of replacing reasoned inquiry and scientific fact with a fundamentalist, fictionalized point of view, as though religious beliefs must take factual precedence over historical fact and acquired knowledge. Sorry, but this is unacceptable.
If you're allowed to teach your kids this crap today (and let's not talk about stuff like the Texas Board of Education's reprehensible guidelines for science textbooks, please), then tomorrow you'll be looking at, say, accreditation standards for medical school research, or the actual validity of fields of study like astronomy or high-energy physics. (And by "you," I mean anyone who's inclined to apologize for the behavior of fundamentalist goons.) And that's the ball game. I'll see the rest of you in Canada.
Religion is a crutch. I prefer to walk under my own power. Keep religion out of science, out of my government, and out of my personal life, and I'll be the first to encourage scientists to avoid commenting upon the likely existence of a deity, okay? |
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
fixx
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Athens. Georgia
Joined: 14.06.06 |
| Posted on February 01 2025 01:18:32 |
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| I live on the east side of Athens, near the Kroger. |
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
NX-47
Super Administrator
Posts: 408
Location: Tampa, Florida
Joined: 25.05.06 |
| Posted on February 01 2025 03:47:21 |
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My $.02:
I'm a firm believer that there must be -something- greater than ourselves out there, watching us, and, if we're listening, communicating with us. Call it God, Allah, Buddha, Q, or whatever, I don't particularly care. And I believe in the afterlife, and reincarnation, and evolution, and the big bang. And I believe that none of what I just said is contradictory.
Who's to say that, in Genesis, the line "God created the heavens and the earth in seven days" was not simply a metaphor to explain in very simple terms how we all got here? Evolution does not have to negate belief in a deity. All one must do to understand this is to open your mind to different possibilities. Until proven wrong, where is the harm?
Time for a quote:
Fifteen hundred years ago everyone KNEW the world was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everyone KNEW the earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago you KNEW we were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll KNOW tomorrow.
My point is: as Humanity learns and grows, our perceptions will change accordingly. Who's to say what we will KNOW in the next 500 years? Will that knowledge negate theology? I don't know... perhaps we'll learn that Earth was seeded by aliens, and upon becoming sentient enough to understand, we were given a code of conduct in the form of religion.
Or, we'll destroy ourselves within this century. 
-------
THAT is the Exploration that awaits you: not mapping stars or studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possibilities of Existence.
Edited by NX-47 on February 01 2025 03:49:04
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Captain Jack
Administrator
Posts: 692
Location: Northern Virginia
Joined: 03.06.06 |
| Posted on February 01 2025 14:01:10 |
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I love Tommy Lee Jones...
Besides the quotation above, my other favorite from this film is
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it.
Sorry, a bit off- topic...
Yes we can to justice and equality.
Yes we can to opportunity and prosperity.
Yes we can heal this nation.
Yes we can repair this world.
Yes we can.
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
NX-47
Super Administrator
Posts: 408
Location: Tampa, Florida
Joined: 25.05.06 |
| Posted on February 01 2025 14:40:24 |
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Captain Jack wrote:
I love Tommy Lee Jones...
Besides the quotation above, my other favorite from this film is
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it.
Sorry, a bit off- topic...
Yeah, that flick had several flashes of brilliance. Too bad the sequel pretty much blew monkeys.
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THAT is the Exploration that awaits you: not mapping stars or studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possibilities of Existence.
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Forsythe-1
Member
Posts: 196
Location: New Jersey
Joined: 04.11.07 |
| Posted on February 01 2025 15:23:04 |
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That there is something beyond our realm of understanding in this universe, I have no doubt, without proof, so apparently I'm willing to cast my lot with faith in some instances. Still, I don't know what it is that lies beyond. Is it intelligence? Is it knowledge? Is it just pure instinctual energy that ahem binds and surrounds us? Or is it simply when you die, the quantifiable energy that is dispelled from the body reasserts itself elsewhere as part of some cosmic order? Whatever the answer, sacred, profane or otherwise, I'm not inclined to believe what had been drilled into my head incessantly as a child. I don't harbor any ill will towards those that do. My only assertion is that those issues are a private matter for people to work out for themselves.
That religion has provided a foundation of morality and ethics in our culture is not in dispute. The flip side of that is that those same codes of conduct have been used to perform acts diametrically opposed to their original intent. More disturbing, is that some of those acts were performed in accordance with those said beliefs. For me personally, I've decided to separate the wheat from the chaff (as it were) and glean whatever positives I can from any religion. I always thought the not killing and not stealing stuff was a pretty good start. The golden rule is pretty dead on too. (That "do unto others..." part is way cool.)
That people have a need for religion and/or spirituality is not an issue with me. That some people feel they don't need it and others feel they do and will try to force those beliefs on them, is.
Anyone else got a headache? Let's talk about something easier...like politics.
"Listen, man. Sleep gives you cancer. Everyone knows that."
Edited by Forsythe-1 on February 01 2025 16:25:04
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
NX-47
Super Administrator
Posts: 408
Location: Tampa, Florida
Joined: 25.05.06 |
| Posted on February 01 2025 15:51:19 |
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Forsythe-1 wrote:
Let's talk about something easier...like politics.
...easier...like politics...?!!?
*NX-47's head swells alarmingly, and then ruptures violently, spewing all manner of brain matter about the room*
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THAT is the Exploration that awaits you: not mapping stars or studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possibilities of Existence.
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Captain Jack
Administrator
Posts: 692
Location: Northern Virginia
Joined: 03.06.06 |
| Posted on February 01 2025 16:19:32 |
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You may like this, then...
Yes we can to justice and equality.
Yes we can to opportunity and prosperity.
Yes we can heal this nation.
Yes we can repair this world.
Yes we can.
Edited by Chronic Harlot on February 01 2025 17:51:29
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Forsythe-1
Member
Posts: 196
Location: New Jersey
Joined: 04.11.07 |
| Posted on February 01 2025 16:35:29 |
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NX-47 wrote:
Forsythe-1 wrote:
Let's talk about something easier...like politics.
...easier...like politics...?!!?
*NX-47's head swells alarmingly, and then ruptures violently, spewing all manner of brain matter about the room*
I think it was Bill Cosby who said "Put your brains back in your head!"
When it comes to discussing religion or politics, the grass is always greener...
Great link BTW, Capt..."there you go again"...Amazing how selective the memory is of some when looking back fondly on the years of "Reaganomics."
"Listen, man. Sleep gives you cancer. Everyone knows that."
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Moeskido
Member
Posts: 102
Joined: 13.10.07 |
| Posted on February 06 2025 12:26:39 |
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And then, of course, there's always the blunt declarative.
Much more interesting than his "letter to Ann Coulter."
Edited by Moeskido on February 06 2025 12:28:21
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Forsythe-1
Member
Posts: 196
Location: New Jersey
Joined: 04.11.07 |
| Posted on February 06 2025 13:15:28 |
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"Hang on folks, this century is gonna be in for a rough ride."
Gotta love Henry . Could almost replace 'The Human adventure is just beginning' as a catch-phrase.
I love his letter to Ann. Makes me laugh. Still, it makes me wonder if that isn't her whole raison d etre: make statements so provocative that her opposition goes on a tirade that really adds nothing of substance, however cathartic it may be. If that is the case, she's gifted. I have moments of going completely ballistic in the face of what I perceive as insanity. My incoherent stab at 'Parking Wars' comes to mind....
"Listen, man. Sleep gives you cancer. Everyone knows that."
Edited by Forsythe-1 on February 06 2025 13:27:55
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RE: To Be Done With Creationism |
Aphelion
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: 07.02.08 |
| Posted on February 07 2025 21:34:44 |
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"Creation Science" is not actually a scientific discipline. There are devout Christians who practice good science, but no Creation Scientist practices science. Science requires years of exhaustive study in the primary literatures and extensive peer-review. No documents created by Creation Science has ever been reviewed by a scientific review board.
America has a problem of binary proportions. We want to fit everything and everyone into two, easy to remember categories: good vs evil, democrat vs republican, christian vs science. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that.
The bottom line is that you should be allowed to practice whatever religion you feel. Faith is not a question of objective evidence, faith is believing in something, even when the evidence is telling you otherwise. The science we teach our children in public schools is is the best we have to date. Many religions can't understand the difference between teaching scientific truths and the Truth. My favorite example is gravity. We know how to predict the motions of objects enough to get a man to the moon, yet we have no idea how it actually works. Gravity is a scientific truth but we don't know if it's actually True. Christians know that God created the earth in seven days, that's the Truth. See the difference?
Ironically, we have more evidence and knowledge about evolution through natural selection than we do about gravity, yet there are no organizations dedicated to eradicating gravity education from our public school systems. 
So yeah, being faithful/spiritual/Christian is cool, but Creation Science is whacko. |
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